Episode 112: How to Market Controversial Books - with Special Guests Laura Drake & Sharon Dukett
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Audio Podcast releases Friday April 25th
Marketing books is hard, but what if your book includes themes readers might consider sensitive or controversial?
From political commentary and social issues, to serious medical topics like cancer, dementia or the right to die, how should you approach marketing books like that?
Join us for a frank conversation about the challenges and opportunities presented when marketing controversial books.
About Laura
Connect with Laura:
Facebook Group - Peace, Love & Books
Laura Drake is a hybrid author of Women's Fiction and Romance. Her debut, THE SWEET SPOT, won the Romance Writers of America® RITA® award for Best First Book. She’s since published 10 more romances and 4 Women’s Fiction. She is a founding member of Women’s Fiction Writers Association and Writers in the Storm blog.
Laura is a city girl who never grew out of her tomboy ways. She gave up the corporate CFO gig to write full time. She realized a lifelong dream of becoming a Texan and is currently working on her accent. She's a wife, grandmother, and motorcycle chick in the remaining waking hours.
About Sharon
Sharon Dukett is an award-winning author who writes thrillers and memoirs. Her memoir, No Rules, won a gold medal in the Next Generation Indie Book Awards in Memoirs (Historical/Legacy), and was a finalist in several other writing contests. Her novel, The Shutdown List, won the 2025 Pencraft Winter Prize for Best Fiction – category Thriller.
Sharon is a member of Sisters in Crime, International Thriller Writers, Mystery Writers of America, and Connecticut Authors and Publishers Association.
She worked in information technology as a consultant, programmer and project manager in the private sector, and as a deputy director in government. This taught her about the infinite possibilities of how plans go awry, and the creativity needed to rescue them: a useful insight for thriller writing.
Episode Resources
Books Mentioned
For Roger by Laura Drake
Days Made of Glass by Laura Drake
The Road to Me by Laura Drake
The Shutdown List by Sharon Dukett
No Rules by Sharon Dukett
Bold Journeys Series by Paulette Stout
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Note: next sections are mostly created by AI for your convenience - so please forgive any typos or inaccuracies!
Summary
Paulette Stout and Lainey Cameron discuss marketing controversial books with authors Laura Drake and Sharon Dukett. Laura's book "For Roger" explores the right to die, inspired by her husband's Parkinson's, and has received positive reviews despite its heavy subject matter. Sharon's memoir "No Rules" and thriller "The Shutdown List" tackle feminism and environmental issues, respectively.
They discuss the challenges of marketing sensitive topics, the importance of clear book blurbs, and the impact of reader expectations. Laura emphasizes writing for personal fulfillment, while Sharon highlights the unique appeal of controversial themes. Both authors share their marketing strategies and the surprising reader reactions they've received.
Transcript
Paulette Stout 0:18
Hello everyone, thank you. And welcome to another episode of the Best of Book Marketing podcast. I am Paulette Stout. This is the incomparable Lainey Cameron, and we are here with two amazing guests today to talk about the issue of marketing books with controversial topics.
We all love to write books, and sometimes we just want to talk about the things that are meaningful to us, and sometimes those includes for sensitive topics, from like political commentary to social issues to medical there's all kinds of things. We're going to dive into all of them today, and we're going to have a really great friend conversation with authors who have written such books. And we'll just get some tips that hopefully will help you market your books a bit better, but we will begin with some personal updates really quickly. You want to take us first, Lainey?
Lainey Cameron 1:09
Sure, so I'm in the middle of teaching my class 12 Weeks to Book Launch Success. It's going really well. We're getting into social proof and how to ask for author endorsements and how to gather reviews, and all kinds of fun stuff. I am doing a fun thing in April. I am doing a reel a day challenge, as in a video reel everyday challenge every day for the month of April. And I do not like doing reels. It takes me totally out of my comfort zone. If you want to have a giggle, go see today's one where I'm actually dancing on camera. That is as far out of my comfort zone as I can get!
Paulette Stout 1:09
You go. Girl!
Lainey Cameron 1:22
I am doing it for all of you, because when I do something that I don't know if it's going to work, it's because I want to see what I can learn and what I can share. And so I am making myself dance on camera for the purpose of learning what it looks like to do a reel a day and see what actually works over the month. So it's going to be a fun one. Totally out of my comfort zone, and I'm continuing slow progress on my second book. It's moving forwards. I'm almost back to regular life. My mom is out of hospital. She's doing better, so things are going much better. Hey, Mom, have to cancel some travel plans, but yay, mom, she's doing so much better. So life is life is good. It's there's humming birds outside. It's a beautiful day in Mexico. What about you, Palette?
Paulette Stout 2:24
Today I found out that I won a book award I didn't know about, two months ago. So I won in these today. I was a runner up in best contemporary romance. So that was kind of cool for my new book. What We Give Away. Shameless plug. And that was super cool. And I am also, I decided to go back and do a second edition of my first book. Love Only Better. You know, we know so little when we first start writing books. And just like anything, you get better as you go. And I just kind of want to go back and re write that one and bring it up to the standards of my current work for one particular reason, marketing, because when we market our books, we often market to book ones in series, and I didn't want my book one to be the quote, you know, weakest title in The bunch, so I'm just trying to bring them up to the same standard so I can have hopefully more marketing success and read through. So we'll let you know how that all goes when it's done. But I guess those are the big two things, and we can intro our guests. Hello, Gabi. Thank you for joining. Gabi said she loved the dancing.
Lainey Cameron 3:41
Okay, yeah, I embarrass myself in public by dancing on camera, but whatever. Okay, let me bring our two guests on stage and tell you a little bit about them. So we have two fabulous guests, both people that I adore and Paulette adores. And we invited them because both of them have written books that touch on really difficult and controversial topics. And we invited them, not necessarily because they know everything there is to know about marketing I wish any of us did, but because they have expertise in what it feels like to bring out a book that is controversial, that is not an easy topic, just like you do. Paulette, just like I do.
And so let me tell you a little bit more about both of them. Laura Drake is an author of both women's fiction and romance. Give a wave for us, Laura. Women's fiction and romance. Her debut did something stellar, which is that it won the Rita Award for the Best First Book from Romance Writers of America, which is insane for a debut novel, and since then, she's gone on to publish 10 more romances, four women's fiction. I know, because I know Laura really well that her heart is in the women's fiction, but the money is in the romance. Is that a fair categorization? Sure. No, her heart is in both. Sorry, didn't say that, romance readers! Laura is a city girl who never grew out of her tomboy ways. She's outside of the DFW area and also just such a friend to writers. She teaches. She teaches wonderful classes with Margie Lawson's writing Academy. In fact, she's been teaching one you're teaching right now, Laura, it's coming right up?
Laura Drake 5:17
Coming up soon. Yes, coming up soon.
Lainey Cameron 5:20
So she teaches. She does conferences where she teaches. Get on her list. If you're not on her email list, lots of great stuff.
Sharon is really interesting in that Sharon has written across genres with her first two books. Her first book was, oh, there you go, Paulette is holding them up. Her first book, No Rules, was a memoir. And her second book, The Shutdown List is a thriller, both of which are award winners, which is most impressive to cross genres and do so well with your books. So congratulations. And Sharon is she worked in information technology as a consultant and programmer, and she's also part of the Thursday night Writer Support Group that I host every Thursday, and I've learned so much from her over time. She helps me out a lot. So I'm really excited to have you here, Sharon.
Sharon Dukett 6:07
Thank you. Thank you. I'm really happy to be here today.
Lainey Cameron 6:11
Okay, so let's get moving forwards. So I'm asking you the first question here, and let's start with Sharon. Tell us a little bit about what sensitive or controversial topics have been included in your books, and did you consider the implication of that as you were writing them when you started, or was it when you get to the end of the process that you're like, Oh, this is a little bit of a tricky topic that I took on here.
Sharon Dukett 6:39
Okay, so I'll start with the memoir, because that's something I wrote over many, many years. It takes place in the early 1970s and it's about when I was 16 years old, I ran away from home to join the hippies in California. Follows the next four years of my life and how that period of time changed me. I ultimately awakened a feminism and found my own strength. So of course, as soon as people hear hippies, they have a lot of preconceived notions, and a lot of those preconceived notions are true. So there's a fair amount of sex, there's a fair amount of drugs, there's hitchhiking, there's all kinds of things that go on, went on at that time. And, you know, some still going on, but some not so much, because things have changed about how the world is.
So when I was writing it, I was a little bit feeling. I really just wanted to capture the times, and I wanted to capture what was really happening, and I was a little uncomfortable, but I went to a lot of workshops, and I went to a lot of different classes and writing events and things of that nature. That about memoir that really helped me put it in perspective. And one of the things that I heard repeated over and over was, don't worry about what people think, just write it, because you can always take it out later if you decide that you don't want it in there. But, you know, write what you want to write the way you want to write it. And and even my even my husband, said he would not read it until I was completely done, because you didn't want to influence what I wrote.
So, I wrote everything, and then at the end, I ended up not really taking anything out, other than kind of preening it a little bit too because it was too long. So I had to cut some because it was too long. I had to keep it more focused on my theme about awakening feminism. And other than that, I put it all in there, not all of it. I mean, there was some stuff it just wasn't necessary, or I just didn't feel comfortable sharing. But enough of it, enough of all kinds of things. So I didn't really try to modify it to to make anybody happy.
Lainey Cameron 9:07
And then your your second book is interesting because it hits right on environmental issues. It's a thriller, but it's got an environmental bent to it, right?
Sharon Dukett 9:15
Yes. So the second book, I wanted to write something that I felt had meaning was important to me, and it started out with me talking taking a workshop where a we were getting writing prompts from the instructor, and the writing prompt that she gave US was a photo of somebody holding a flag where they could have been arrested in Russia. And as a result of this, she we were asked to write something where something that we felt we would be willing to sacrifice our. Freedom for and it could be fiction or it could be true. And what came out at that time was this, this sense, this feeling of protesting on the steps of the Capitol in Washington about the environment because of the environment was being forced out of our discussions, and that bothered me. So that's what I began to write about, and it grew from there.
Lainey Cameron 10:31
Awesome. Let's move to you, Laura. Tell us a little bit about, I mean, I know of some of your books, and some of them touched me so deeply, but, uh, tell us about some of the controversial topics you've written about.
Sharon Dukett 10:40
Well, the most recent one was For Roger, women's fiction. It deals mostly with the right to die and that controversial issue. But I didn't set out to write it because it was controversial. Um, I'm one of those people that I don't know what I really think until I write it. I writing is so cathartic for me. It helps me resolve things and I don't even know are messed up inside. Well, lot of it, I know a lot of it, people tell me, but this particular one, my husband, has Parkinson's, and he's he's done really well. He's 16 years diagnosis, but you cannot help but think about the future. And so this book grew from that. I I'm very interested in the subject.
Laura Drake 11:52
Some states have made it legal to a certain extent. There's all kinds of law challenges about it all. I live in Texas. It is still considered band slaughter in Texas to help assist someone to die. So that's where it all came from. And I just get an idea and a character that I go with it. I have no idea where the story's going, and this one took me places. I was surprised. I did not realize I'd end up there, but luckily, it has a hopeful ending, but I do understand that it's not for everyone. A lot of people are have very firm thoughts on the subject and opinions, and I tried not to let my opinion show through in the writing. I wanted to show both sides fairly so at the end, no matter which side of the controversy you're on, you at least understand the other side better. That was, that was the goal.
Paulette Stout 13:09
And I think you did a really good job of that. Because I think especially in the book The Road To Me, which also kind of dealt a little bit with, like the right to die idea, with the character of the woman and her grandmother. I didn't feel like I was being preached to, you know, and good. I couldn't tell, like, what your thoughts was. And interesting with Sharon's book, is what the shutdown was like. I know you, I know where your politics are, but I didn't feel like I was being lectured to, or I was being forced to take a side. I just was, like, experiencing the book with the characters. You know, the perspective was clear, but it didn't feel like intrusive or preachy. So I think you've both done a really good job of, you know, balancing that in your work.
Lainey Cameron 13:53
And Paulette, your books are like part of your brand is taking on social issues, right? So tell us about some of the social issues that come up across your series?
Paulette Stout 14:03
Yeah, so I've done women's intimacy in the first one, I did me too, but with a male perspective. That wasn't, you know, we'll talk about this later. Wasn't, you know, people who read it really liked it, but it wasn't like a typical social take to take on me too, to take the male side of that. So that wasn't particularly, you know, popular. And then my third book takes on race and belonging, and my fourth takes on weight and body size. So, yeah, my brand is a little bit around controversy, you can say for sure.
Lainey Cameron 14:31
And and actually, let's start with you on this next question. Paulette, so did that make it harder or easier to market the books? Were there hurdles that you didn't see coming as you took that approach?
Paulette Stout 14:41
I think that, I think the controversy, the social issues, it's really about for me, writing about things that interest me, like Laura was saying, but also framing in a way that would read, that would kind of match genre expectations for readers. So it's in there. Or and it just kind of depends how much you lead with it in terms of how well it fits or doesn't fit the genre. So interracial romance is, like a is a big genre, so having an interracial couple and taking on race, I think, is really welcome for people who read interracial romance, you know, in terms of, you know, weight and body size, like, that's an issue that a lot of people can relate to.
So in my new book, What We Give Away, I think that's kind of welcome. I think in the first book, it was a little tricky, because we're talking about women's intimacy, but not a lot of people are uncomfortable talking about women's intimacy. So that's can be a challenge. So I think it, it might vary from issue to issue. I guess is, is the answer for me? Lainey, yeah, I guess so.
Lainey Cameron 15:43
Do you find that because you consistently write about social issues, that someone will go read one of your other books, even if it wasn't a topic they would have started like naturally chose?
Paulette Stout 15:53
Yes. I definitely am finding people that are reading one book and then exploring the others, and I think that because they're presented in a really entertaining, not preachy way. People are open to the journey.
Lainey Cameron 16:06
Great. So Laura, what was your experience? You've you've picked like a right to die, for example, with for Roger, did it make it harder to market that book?
Laura Drake 16:14
Um, I marketed it the same as I, as I always do, I have a large following on social media, and I was one of the founders of readers Coffee House, which is 18,000 readers. And so I had a big audience. But because a lot of people, number one, aren't comfortable the subject. Number two, a lot of people right now, with the state of the world, first of all, don't want heavy subjects. They're looking for lighter reading. Also, many people are facing the aging parents and dying parents, and they do not want to go there. So I understood that when I wrote it, but I don't think I see I have a I don't have a problem. I love tough subjects. I love delving into it, and I knew there might be a problem, but it was bigger than I thought it was going to be.
Lainey Cameron 17:30
Interesting.
Paulette Stout 17:31
That's interesting.
Lainey Cameron 17:32
And what about for you, Sharon, has it been harder because you've got these environmental issues or drugs in your memoir? Or do you think it has in some ways, being part of what makes the book interesting to people.?
Sharon Dukett 17:45
Well, okay, so for the first book, The hippie, hippie kind of era book, what I've noticed lately, and perhaps it's because it's also around feminism, and sort of the second wave feminism happening during that time, the interest seems to be picking up. So even though the book at this point is a few years old, I'm when I go to in person, events and stuff, more and more people are interested in the memoir, because they're interested in that era. They're interested in what it was like for women to experience that awakening to feminism, and they're interested in what the environment was like while that was happening.
So that's kind of a plus the whole drug thing. I kind of just assume people assume that's going to be in there, because, you know, it's hippies. And would you think there wouldn't be drugs? I mean, I don't think so. So, so that's that one. With the other book, with the thriller, I kind of, I tend to pitch it, not so much pushing the idea of the environmental issue. I push it more. I pitch it more as a thriller, but I make sure that it's clear that there's, there's an environmental issue.
Because when I pitch it, I say, Anita, it's a book about Anita, whose husband has disappeared after leading climate activists in a protest. So that puts that out there. That's climate activism, and there's protests so but then I say, she learned she's also in danger, so she ditches all her electronic ties and goes in a perilous search for him unaware he's kept a crucial secret from her. And that's when most people go, ooh, and that's when they want to read it. They aren't necessarily reading it for the environmental issue, but they know it's there. They're reading it because they want to know what this husband's secret is.
Paulette Stout 19:38
And I love that because I think what that does. And I've sold in person with Sharon, so I know how she relates to people one on one. But I I think that when you frame the book in something that's relatable to lots of people, you know the book is interesting. It's not just about the issue, it's about the book. So talking about making the book interesting to people folks, I'm very interested to hear. Laura, what is your stance on like trigger warnings, and how much to reveal, like in the book blurb or in your retail marketing? How much is about the sensitivity content or not?
Laura Drake 20:14
Um, I don't really worry about trigger warnings. I It's not that I don't believe in them. I think if your book blurb is clear, people who are going to be triggered by that are going to see it. You can't hide something like that. I think that's not fair to readers, but I don't actually put on it trigger warning. You actually can tell from the back of the book, blurb.
Paulette Stout 20:45
Yeah, and I go ahead Lainey,
Lainey Cameron 20:47
So I shared with Paulette that my upcoming book that is not out yet, that I'm working on was inspired by some thoughts I had around gun control and how we don't really protect kids from guns. And you know, every week you don't know this, but every week, some child gets their hand on a gun and shoots and kills somebody, and we're talking little children here. We're not talking like teenagers who know what they're doing. We're talking little kids who shoot mom in the supermarket.
And it was inspired by that concept, but it's the back story of the book, and so I've actually had a bit of a challenge with do I put it right on the back cover copy or not right? Like, because it is such a controversial topic, and because it is such a divisive topic for people this concept of gun control? And so I do think it's a really interesting point, Laura, that putting it right on the back cover brings in the people who are want to read it and turns away the people who are just going to hate it anyway. And I think that probably is the right way to go.
Paulette Stout 21:41
I think interesting Lainey, because I was going on vacation, I was browsing on the bookstore, and I read a lot digitally, y'all. So for me, going to a bookstore like, that's a thing. So I got the book at the bookstore. I got it home, and I didn't say anything about the sensitive content on the back cover or but when I opened the front the author's note was there, and it talked about that there was a school shooting in the book. And it for me, I felt like I'd already bought the book, you know, and I ended up giving my daughter return because it was just not a book that was not a story that I wanted to consume at that time. So I think depending on how much is on page versus backstory, can also kind of play a role. But Sharon, what is, what are your thoughts on trigger warnings?
Sharon Dukett 22:23
Well, I've never used them one reason. Well, when I was first writing the memoir, I wrote it over many years, and there was no such thing as trigger warnings when I was writing for the first number of years, that kind of came along much later. In fact, I only started hearing about them when my book was already coming out, and then it seemed to be something that was more common with self published books, and not so much with traditionally published books. So and I so I kind of lean towards the idea that that, you know your blurb should say enough to make it clear that, you know, like, like, you shouldn't have a book that's about a happily married couple and there's like, a horrendous rape scene in the middle, you know. So there needs to be something in there that's going to alert people that there's more you know, things of that nature might be included so but if your blurb already makes it clear, I think you're fine.
Paulette Stout 23:33
Since we talked about book blurbs twice, y'all might want to go back and listen to our last episode where we had an amazing extrovert talking about book blurbs. And she too said that the tone and the language of your book blurb is something that should convey it. And she, you know, she also wasn't a fan of book blurbs. But if you want to hear more about that, please go back and check. Go back and listen to episode 111.
Lainey Cameron 23:55
Yeah, Jessie Cunniffe, Book Blurb Magic. She was fabulous. And yeah, she didn't like trigger warnings. Her take was, No, I don't like content warning, trigger warnings. She was not a fan. Yeah, go ahead, Laura.
Laura Drake 24:06
I was lucky enough to get to read an early version of Lainey book. And you know Lainey, it is backstory, but it's a substructure of your entire character. So it seems to me, not only that you want to let people know about trigger warning, but it's actually this what the story is about. I mean, I know it is backstory, but if you pulled out that piece of it, you wouldn't have a book.
Lainey Cameron 24:38
Right? I mean it was inspired by the question of, I read this stat about how many kids you know every week, some kid is killing someone little children. And it was inspired by the question I asked myself of like, how do you grow up as that person? How do you live your life as that person? How do you move on even though you were a little kid? Can you actually forgive yourself and tell yourself you were just a little kid? Or do you have to live with the fact that you killed. Someone for your whole life, and so that was what inspired the book, and that's what my character's journey is to work through that. So yeah, I think it is going to be on the back cover in the end. I think it actually is kind of core to what the book's about, right? Okay, so next up, oh, Paulette, did you answer this question about trigger warnings for yours? Did you have a take?
Paulette Stout 25:21
Oh, I didn't answer. I am that's funny, because I, when I started my first book, I wasn't sure what to do, and I was looking at some other authors and what they did, and even books as you know, provocative as like, it ends with us, obviously, the big country, with the movie, but the written book is I found that extremely powerful and shocking when it happened. And I think the surprise was part of the experience that book does not have a trigger warning, and it is about domestic violence. So I think that if I was someone who, you know, was, you know, surprised I went into I think he was a romance like that might be shocking. So I think part of the whole thing is not just what does the book blurb say, but what is the overall marketing presentation? Is it? How's the cover? What's the tone of the writing you use in your blurb? If it's funny, and then you have something really serious in there, that's kind of a mismatch. So I think it's all about matching reader expectations.
And I think, as we've discussed, if you do that with your packaging, with your cover, with your book blurb, with the tone, you probably can skip the book bird, but I am a really big fan of authors notes, and I put that at the front of my books. I used to put it in the back and I moved it to the front, because I sell a lot digitally, and people can go and look at the book inside, and they can see the author's note is there, and the you know, so they can have that choice about whether continue with the purchase or continue reading. So I feel like it's kind of like a compromise.
Lainey Cameron 26:57
Laura, did you have a thought?
Laura Drake 26:59
It's really interesting. You say that Paulette one of my other books the road to me, women's fiction. Parts of it are really funny. I've got a goat and a convertible and an old lady at a nudist colony and and parts of it are very humorous, but there's one section that's brutally tough. Um, did I get away with it? I got great reviews. I haven't heard anyone complain now that one is not on the back. You would not know that, and I guess it could be a trigger to some people, but no one mentioned it yet.
Lainey Cameron 27:46
Interesting, so let's move into a different topic. Let's talk about what has worked in general for you in marketing your books. Laura, you mentioned that you've got this phenomenal Facebook group and a big social media presence. Is that what's worked the best in terms of building connections with readers and marketing your work, or are there other things that have worked for you?
Laura Drake 28:05
That has worked the best along with, believe it or not, teaching people get to know me through my teaching and God bless Margie Lawson, she uses my examples from my books, in almost everything she teaches. Thank you, Lord. Um, and I know that I got a bunch of readers. I mean, you know, I'll meet someone for the first time. They'll go, you wrote the bull Seaman book. It's okay. Gotta be known for something.
Lainey Cameron 28:39
I mean, so when I first met Laura, I'll share this is Lainey. I had studied Laura's work, including the bull semen book in Margie Lawson's class. I've done some immersions, and y'all know me as someone who's kind of out there happy being on camera. Even dances. Sometimes. I was frozen when I met Laura. I was in awe because work I had studied, and I was like, Oh, my God, it's so Laura Drake,
Laura Drake 29:06
I've never had anyone do that before since, and believe me, Lainey, I love you for it.
Lainey Cameron 29:13
So Sharon, what works for you, what's been effective for you in marketing, your work?
Sharon Dukett 29:20
Well, a few different things. I do a lot of in person events, and so for me, that's that works a lot. I meet people, I talk to people, I see what interests them, and, you know, they talk to other people, and so forth and so on. So, I mean, that's one that's one avenue, and then the other thing that's worked for me on occasion has been Facebook, but not necessarily so much posting about my book, but finding groups. Programs and threads that particularly groups that have an interest of the type of thing that I write. So for example, there's a group about one one interesting thing that happened was I ran into a group that was talking about and making a documentary about the Watkins Glen Summer Jam in 1973 and the movie makers and the producers and so forth were talking about this movie and posing questions about, what was it like? Were you there and that sort of thing.
So I had been there and had written about it in my memoir, but then I ended up taking it out because memoir was too long, and I had to cut stuff. So so it wasn't in the memoir, but I mentioned how I lived on a commune very near there. We all went to the concert, and I wrote a book about the era, but ended up having to cut it. So it's not in the book, and what the book was, and because it wasn't the kind of Facebook page where they're worried about self promotion. It got left there, and the producer bought the book, and he read it, and he thought I did such a great job with capturing the times that he then interviewed me for this documentary film that they're making that's supposed to come out the end of the end of this year, the beginning of next year, where they've interviewed, like, all these famous people in the music industry and all this kind of thing. So, I mean, he interviewed me for like an hour to talk talking about all this stuff. Of course, the documentary is probably two hours, so I'll probably get like five minutes, if I'm lucky, maybe two. But,
Paulette Stout 31:39
you know, but that kind of thing, movie business, you're
Lainey Cameron 31:43
Like, what you've done there, Sharon, is you've intersected a topic which is topical and interesting, that's in your book, and you've worked at where people are talking about that thing, and then you turned up there. I also think what you've done with events is really interesting, because I want to, I want to talk about this a little more, because people may not realize what you mean by that, but you do like local fairs, right, not necessarily just book events, right? Like holiday fairs, local fairs, and you've had quite some success with that, and so I think that's a venue authors don't think of. They think of book places to be, right, like I should go be at the book fair or the library or the bookstore. But I find it very interesting that a lot of authors are having success like you are going out to local forums where you're the one or two books in the fair, not one of 100 books in the in the event, right?
Sharon Dukett 32:30
Because, yeah, because the other thing that happens is that when people come by a lot of times, they're walking around looking at all this other stuff, and they're like, oh, books, you know, the ones that really have an interest in books, and so right away, they're very curious about what what you've written in what's available. Yes,
Paulette Stout 32:52
I have sold with Sharon showing the booth, and I don't do it anymore, because she's so good at selling in person, I have no chance next to her. So I love you girl, but I'm not sure the both of you know more.
Lainey Cameron 33:06
So Paulette, before we move into our little sponsor segment, what do you do that works the best in marketing?
Paulette Stout 33:13
I think it's, I think I just do a lot of different things. And I think definitely, like, I enjoy selling in person, and I've been, you know, integrating that in I never, ever, never, ever, ever, never do book fairs anymore. I only go where I can be, like the one author or the two authors in a craft fair. So that's kind of my sweet spot. I also think of who my target audience is. I have, usually, you know, college educated women and whatever. So I try to do events in specific communities where I feel like I'm gonna find a readership that'll be receptive to my book.
So I do a little bit of like demographic assessment before I pick the in person. Things I also do a little bit similar to Sharon, but online. So I look for podcasts that are kind of on the topic that I'm doing. So like, when I had my first book, I was on a whole bunch of, like, sexy podcasts. And then on, you know, the current book I'm on, I'm, you know, probably done three, at least so far, of, like, food and health and wellness podcast. So I'm trying to do that intersection you're talking about in, you know, those spaces, articles on blogs and things like that, and just doing a little bit of everything, I suppose.
That's great. So I think we're going to move into our So, yeah, go ahead turn.
Sharon Dukett 34:36
Oh, yeah. I was just going to mention the other thing that I have started to do is, is to participate at conferences. So there's a couple of thriller conferences that allow authors who who are going to be there, to be on panels, and sometimes you're on a panel with some other very famous authors. So last year, I did a panel at Bouchercon. Which was in Nashville, which is for mystery writers from all over the country. And this year I'm doing a panel at I got accepted as to do a panel at international thriller writers in New York City, which I'm very excited about in June. So that's going to be a great opportunity.
Paulette Stout 35:21
Yeah, okay.
Lainey Cameron 35:25
Okay, so I think we're moving into our sponsor segment. We we haven't gone and gotten another sponsor yet. So I think Paulette, you had suggested this week that we talk about my book for a change.
Paulette Stout 35:37
Yes, we do. Life gets lifey. Y'all look for the merch. I'm planning to do merch.
Lainey Cameron 35:43
If anyone wants to sponsor us, we haven't actually gone out yes, for a third sponsor. We've had two sponsors who we loved. We only pick sponsors who we believe in. We would never have someone sponsor the podcast that we don't trust, no scams, no garbage, nothing that we don't think works for authors. So we're very restrictive about who will let sponsor the podcast.But if you might be interested, let us know, because we haven't even gone thought about having a third sponsor.
Okay, I will talk about my book, which is called The Exit Strategy, came out in 2020 during the pandemic. It has won 15 awards, and it is fun feminist fiction, and it actually fits with this topic of controversial topics. And how do you write about controversial topics or market them, because this book has been called a feminist anthem.
And the interesting thing is, when I started out, I knew that my personal story would be part of how I marketed the book, because I came from tech. I came from Silicon Valley. This book is based in Silicon Valley, and there's sexism that the characters experience throughout the book. The real story is that about a wife and a mistress who meet across the negotiating table and realize at that second in time that they are the wife and the mistress. And the thing is, they can't walk away, because one just invested in the other's company, so they are forced to work together.
Well, a couple of things that I think are relevant to this discussion for this book. One is so many people told me when I was out querying this book, so many agents said, I don't understand. It starts so well with the wife and the mistress, and there's all this tension, and they're angry at each other. I want it to be a revenge book about how they go after the husband. And I said, No, that's not the book I'm writing. I'm writing a book about how women are stronger than the situations we end up in sometimes, and we're collaborative, and we are we are better than the way we're portrayed in the movies and the TV shows, where we're in cat sites and we can't get on with each other.
Ultimately, this book is about how the women do succeed together and work through it. Spoiler alert, the husband doesn't die. He doesn't end up well, he doesn't die. So but like so many people told me, No, no, I will take this book and I want to represent it, but you have to kill the husband, and they have to murder him and and I'm like, but that's not the book I'm writing. I'm right. That makes the book about the guy. I want to write a book about the women. And so I stuck to my guns.
And what's really interesting is, because a lot of positive reviews, it's got three or 400 reviews on Amazon at this point. Most of the reviews, what people like in this book is the feminism in it is the fact that it's about the women, is the fact that it's about the friendship. So I think the lesson there is, don't listen to people who tell you that you need to write something more mundane, that you need to write something that fits better in the box. They want to put it in.
Write the book of your heart, and the readers will find it and love it, because it was the book of your heart. So I think that's the number one lesson I kind of learned from writing this book, and so that's what I would encourage other writers to do. And then it actually did help that it was relevant to my personal journey. I also had a lot of success with podcasts, because I was able to talk about my own real life experience and how we experience sexism in Silicon Valley, and how that made its way into the book, and how it influenced this book.
One of the things I tell my class when you're trying to get on podcasts, you're generally not pitching the book when you reach out to a podcast. So I'll take an example of Paulette's, latest book right, which is called What We Give Away. And Paulette's book is all about diet culture and how we've been lied to with diet culture. And she's been talking on some podcasts around body, body image and these things. But she doesn't pitch these podcasts by saying, I wrote a book I want to talk about my novel, right?
She pitches these podcasts by saying, this is a topic I'm very passionate about. Here are some of the things I can talk about, I assume, because I know Paulette does this well, and this is what I recommend to my class, and then the book becomes the proof point of all of those things.
So for example, I pitched the podcast by saying I am an ex Silicon Valley executive. I have decided to leave Silicon Valley, and I decided to become an author. And here's why I made that decision, and here's some of the things other people can learn from that life change. And then the book becomes the proof point of what I'm saying. So, for example, I talk about in interviews the idea of imposter syndrome, and I was told that it wasn't credible that I had a CEO in the book with imposter syndrome. Well, in my experience, a lot of female execs have imposter syndrome, but the book, and the character, Carly in the book becomes the proof point. Of what I'm saying. But I never approach podcasts with here's my book. I want to talk about my book.
Your book is not news. I'm sorry, people, the book is not news. You have a topic that is newsworthy, and your book is the example of that topic. And I think it's very important to turn it around that way, because unless you're trying to get on like a book podcast, you want to get on a lifestyle podcast, mom podcast, body weight podcast, body image, sexism, women's podcast, right? Those are the ones you want to be on. They've got the big audience, and they don't want to talk about a book. They want to talk about you and your story and how you came to this conclusion. And those are what, those are the things that are really interesting. So just using my own book, the exit strategy, which I encourage you to go read, it's very well reviewed, 15 awards, a lot of fun to say that there's some lessons there that we can learn on how to how to write around controversial topics. Moving on, that was our sponsored segment for this week.
Sharon Dukett 40:49
And I recommend it.
Paulette Stout 40:52
Amazing, amazing, amazing book. I can't hold it up, maybe digitally, but it's there.
Lainey Cameron 40:58
Okay, so I'm going to skip a couple of questions here, because I feel like we've covered the next couple of questions and maybe I'm just going to skip right into a question that we were going to have Paulette ask here, which is what has been the biggest surprise when engaging with readers around your work. So you've taken these books out that have these somewhat controversial topics. Has there been anything that surprised you in terms of reader reactions. And why don't we start with Laura, here?
Laura Drake 41:24
Honestly, this was the the good side of it is that the people that have read it loved it. I mean, it is a hard subject, but they said in very eloquent language, it was amazing that it was a book that would stick with them for a long time. It made them think and consider the other side. There's legal in it, there's medical in it, and yet, at the heart, it's a woman's fiction. It's a woman learning. And, yeah, I mean, luckily, the the reviews have been the biggest surprise. And Oh, love it. You know, y'all are authors. You know, wow.
Paulette Stout 42:38
So I was going to say For Roger is a fabulous book, and to your point on, like, the legal ramifications. So I've lived in California for the longest time, which has a more lenient perspective on this, and so I had never even stopped to think about the fact that in Texas, it's still illegal and you can go to jail for helping someone. I just never even thought about it. And so that book made me think, Gosh, what would I do in that scenario, if my loved one was asking me to help, and yet it was actually against the law in the state I lived in, and I just never stopped to think about it. So I love that you made me stop and think. But also, like educated me that you know, my experience and the laws in the state I'm used to are that is not universal. It's very different in other states.
Laura Drake 43:16
Yes, yep.
Speaker 1 43:17
Uh, Sharon, what about you this question of surprise? What has been the biggest surprise as readers have given you feedback?
Sharon Dukett 43:30
Well, one of the surprises to me for the memoir was that I expected the audience would be mostly boomers, Boomer women who had experienced that and were interested in sort of, you know, reliving that era. But that didn't turn out to be the case very often it is younger women, you know, sometimes very young women, even teenagers and women in their 20s and 30s who are the most interested, because it's something that's so foreign to them, and they haven't heard a lot about it, and they don't really know much about those times, so they're very curious about that. So that's been a surprise. And then, and then, as far as the shutdown list, you know, I've had great feedback. I've had because I go to a number of events where I might go to the same one, you know, four or five months later, and some of the readers will come in who have already read the book.
And I'll have readers frequently. I either have readers who are thriller some some readers will buy both, but some readers, you know, say, Oh, I really like I really like thrillers, or I really like memoir, and that's what they'll buy. But when they come back, they love the book so much that they decide to give my other book a chance, even though it's out of their genre.
Laura Drake 44:57
Sharon, isn't it humbling when your past is now looked at as historical?
Sharon Dukett 45:04
Yeah it is. And that was one of the awards I won, actually, was historical memoir. From next generation Indie book awards was historical memoir. Okay?
Lainey Cameron 45:19
Paulette, what's been surprising to you as you've written across these different topics, in terms of interactions with readers?
Paulette Stout 45:29
I think I'm sometimes surprised if I'll give them a chance, because, like, you write these things and you want people to read them. You're like, oh, you actually are reading these things. Um, I love the reactions, where people are feeling really validated and seen. I try to write about these different life experiences that people go through, and oftentimes people feel really isolated and alone, like they're the only ones who are having those struggles or having those feelings, who are having those challenges. So it's really validating when readers say, That's me. I can so relate to that. I've, you know, for all the books I've had really tremendous feedback I, you know, especially on, you know, Laura gave me great feedback. The latest book is like, that was my mother, you know. So people, you know, see themselves reflected on the page.
And I think that's what we want. We want to write relatable characters that people can connect with because you want to, you know, journey with these characters, you grow to love them and care about them, and it's even that much richer an experience when you feel like you can see yourself reflected on the page. And I think especially because I write ethnically diverse characters, that that's like another layer that people from different communities can feel like seeing on the page, my question like part of the interview this week, so I've been a little slouchy here, but yeah, so I what I love this question, because we, we were having a little bit of an email exchange today. And, you know, sometimes we want to write these books, but not everyone wants to read them. So, you know, it impacts the audience that we can have for these books. So I would love we'll start with you, Laura, you know, what are do you have any advice about level, setting expectations for sales and response? You know, if you choose to write a book that you know has a bit of a controversial theme involved?
Laura Drake 47:23
In this case, For Roger, and one of my other books, Days Made of Glass, I wrote for for others, but mostly for me. For Roger, as I said, is me working out end of life and and how you deal with that days made of glass. None of it was biographical, but the two sisters in the book had the relationship my sister and I did, and I lost her to cancer at 32 and I never knew, and I wrote this well, 20 years after she passed, and I never knew. I hadn't completely let go of her until I wrote that book and finished it, and then I realized, wow, so although yes, do I, would I love to sell like Jodi be called, oh yeah, but I got what I wanted out of those books, because those two specifically weren't about sales. They were about me and my heart, and so I will never be disappointed in either one of those books.
So just if you're going to write something close to the heart, like a memoir Sharon or or Paulette, like what you wrote about your most recent book, body shaming and us dealing with our bodies, just write what you want to write, say what you want to say, and then put it down. Don't worry about I know we all Chase reviews and sales and all, but that's not what that book's about. So try not to go down that rabbit hole.
Paulette Stout 49:32
Sharon, you've had very different experiences with each of your books, obviously with different genres, but controversial in their own ways. So did you especially maybe with the memoir, when you're working with a publisher, was there any conversation around how they were viewing the projected sales for the book, given some of the themes you covered in the memoir?
Sharon Dukett 49:54
Well, because my memoir is published by a hybrid publisher. Their projected sales aren't really a concern to them. So it wasn't and there for she writes press. She writes press. Their imprint is literary fiction and memoir, so just the idea of it being a memoir, you know, makes it something that fits with their what they like to publish. So, yeah, there wasn't any issues at all with that and and, in fact, I had worked with the publisher beforehand and as an instructor when I was doing editing, she worked kind of as my developmental editor, and she kept encouraging me to, you know, put it all out there and, you know, completely, you know, just don't be afraid. Just speak your voice and all that kind of thing, because that was important to her.
Paulette Stout 51:01
Yeah, I've definitely had some thinking around this, because I think there's a lot of things that triangulate that impact sales. It's not only the sensitive things. I also genre bend. So there's probably a few things that are, you know, sometimes impact, you know, where or how many your book sales, or how ads function and so forth. But definitely for my second book, what we never say it had a male, you know, it had a female lead character.
And I'm always so surprised that people don't really talk about the female storyline in that book, because they focus, you know, it's kind of revolving around the male character storyline a little bit in that book, which was a male survivor of female sexual harassment. Um, you know, female on male sexual harassment. Um, so I, you know, for me, that book, you know, I love that book. It has the favorite ending I ever written. If you don't like as much spice, it's got very little spice in that one. Um, I was trying to appeal to women's fiction readers, but the topic of this male me too, situation, I think, just didn't land as well as I had hoped it would. So that probably, you know, makes me sad, because I love the book. You know, it has some really great reviews, but you know that topic just sometimes isn't as appealing to the reader. So when you write these things, you know, for me, at least, I always have, like, a, you know, tempered expectations for book sales, because you never know how some of these issues are going to land.
Lainey Cameron 52:32
Good point. So we're heading into the home straight here in our last couple of questions. And this is a big, difficult one, but I we did give you an advance warning we're going to ask this question. So knowing what you know now about writing a book that touches on a difficult topic or a controversial topic, would you do it again? And what advice would you give to authors who maybe have a book of their heart that touches on a very controversial topic that they're working on or thinking about working on? What? What would you say to them, having taken this on and kind of looking back in time and Paulette, I'll let you go first on this difficult question.
Paulette Stout 53:07
Oh, okay, um, I think, like most of my books, yes, 100% I would definitely do them again. I think with my second one, the one just talked about, I might have, like, framed it a little bit, because, you know, I do write books that I want, but I also want books that will sell. And you do need to be mindful of the marketplace, if that's your approach, like, if you're, like, Laura was saying, you're writing it for yourself, and you kind of don't care about book sales. You know, often I say I don't care, but I, like, really do.
So, you know, that's a thing where you know you need to look at what the marketplace and you know, if I had done a little market research on the topic, I, you know, I might have, you know, written the book in a little bit of a different way that would have, you know, landed better with the audience I was aiming for. I wrote like i Laura says, book my heart, and it's amazing, and it's won six awards, so it's quality, but I might have tried to pivot it a little bit to make it a little bit more appealing.
Lainey Cameron 54:04
Sharon, what about for you? Would you? Would you do it the same way again? And what advice would you give to other authors?
Sharon Dukett 54:11
Yeah, absolutely. And what I've noticed when I speak to people in you know, what I see when I encounter people at book fairs and so forth is, I think they find my books interesting because they're kind of unique and and different from every other book that is is out there. Not that. I mean, they're not totally different. They have some similarities, but, but they kind of stand out a little bit, and so that makes people more interested. And, you know, and I, you know, I see that same thing to politics books too, because they're, they're, you know, a group of unique topics that everyone isn't writing about. And that can be a big advantage of. Um, to to an author, a lot of it is just, you know, getting the word out there to people so that they know these books exist. And that's where, you know, the book marketing comes in. But, yeah, absolutely. And I am writing another book right now, and it's, it's going to be interesting to see where this one actually ends up, but it's, it's different than other things I've written, but it's still thriller.
Lainey Cameron 55:29
And Laura, but what about you?
Laura Drake 55:32
Thank God I'm not writing for the money. Um, I always say, you know, lightning can strike, but that's not a good marketing strategy, and it's not really good for your 401, K either. So I am very lucky in that I don't have to worry about the money. That said to me, the money is just a way of keeping score. I want more readers with every book, right, left brain and they fight right? I mean, I write the book that I am interested in. I'm not following trends. I want to learn things. I want to learn what I feel about things. That's number one, because if I'm not having fun, I'm retired. There are a lot more things. There's a bunch of fish out there that I'm still chasing to try and catch. So I've got to be enjoying myself. So it's gotta be something that engages me. Now, would I love if one just lightning did strike and it really hit? Oh, my God yes. But I'm grateful that I don't have to rely on that.
Lainey Cameron 56:57
And for anyone listening and watching who thinks Laura is using a metaphor when she talks about catching fish. No, she is not. She is talking about standing in the middle of a river with the the full galoshes and everything. I love Laura's fishing photos. Okay, so the most important question of the whole time people have been listening, they're learning more about your work. Where can they go learn more about you and your books, and what is the best way to engage with you and Laura, why don't you kick us off here?
Laura Drake 57:26
My website is LauraDrakebooks.com there's all kinds of information about me and my books and everything I've written, but the place that I play and the place that I hang out is my Facebook group, Laura Drake's Peace, Love and Books, and the only rules are no politics, no meanness and no spiders. And I post snark every day, beauty pics. And it's become not because of me, it's because of the members. It's a community now. We've got running jokes, and it's just crazy. We have a great time.
Lainey Cameron 58:10
It's a lot of fun. Sometimes it's the highlight of my day.
Laura Drake 58:14
I just enjoy the heck out of it.
Lainey Cameron 58:19
Sharon, what about you? Okay, well,
Sharon Dukett 58:22
I also have a website, Sharondukett.com one word. Sometimes people struggle with Dukett. There's no C in it. That's the biggest mistake I see, and there's no E at the end. So Sharondukett.com I'm also on Facebook. I have a personal account is Sharon Dukett And then SharonDukettauthor is my author account, so I have more of author types of things on that account. And I'm also on Instagram as Sharon,dukett. I have a newsletter. So if you come to my website, you can sign up for my newsletter. I don't hound you. It comes out about once a month.
Speaker 1 59:04
So that's it. And we will put all of that on the episode page. If you go to Bestofbookmarketing.com you can get all the links to everyone's social media and websites. And Paulette, why don't you answer the question too? And I'm going to answer it, too, for once.
Paulette Stout 59:16
Yes, paulettestout.com, I'm on everywhere, social media, at PauletteStoutauthor, Tiktok. I'm hanging out there and Instagram mostly these days. And come over to my website. You can find books everywhere. I mean, come to unlimited I print ebook and audio. And I guess that's it. Lainey?
Lainey Cameron 59:40
I'm on LaineyCameron.com, you can find the links to all my other social medias there, and Instagram is where you are most likely to see me. And I'm having fun, like I said, this week, this month, doing a reel a day. So come see what we can learn together as I take that one on.
Paulette Stout 59:55
And just really quickly, I just want to give you a little bit of a preview of what some of the episodes coming up we will be to. Doing a recap of our season of episodes so far. They'll look for that. And then we are doing the long awaited episode on Facebook ads. So if you are interested in Facebook ads, be sure to look for that episode when it comes out.
Speaker 1 1:00:16
And I have to credit that Laura was actually the first person to ask us to do an episode about Facebook ads. So we've been, we've been we've been answering for a year. Yes, yes, we will get to it. So just to say that if anyone is watching or listening and there's a topic that you would like us to cover, we cover the topics you ask for. We go find the best experts and bring them in. So if there's a topic that's top of mind for you, let us know.
Paulette Stout 1:00:39
Absolutely. Thank you so much everyone, and we will see you. Thank you. Bye.